We went over the law of chastity in relief society this past sunday -_-
By taintedlove
8/19/2011 10:56:27 AM
I didnt want to come as it was.... but i came. Everything was ok til the issue off modesty came up. The teacher made a comment along the lines where if a woman dresses immodest she causes herself to get raped. This really anmoyed me. Then another pipped in a woman who dresses immodest is walking pornography. This woman was a younger woman... I was appalled. So i chimed in that not all women are taught modesty accourding to church standards and that our children need to be taught that. And furthermore we need to teach our children self control as part of modesty! And the relief society president bacjed me saying we shouldnt be judgemetal. Which she is right.

But this pissed me off. I wasnt raped because of my "modesty". I was raped because those 7 men lacked self control and didnt listen to my pleas. I told my bishop about the lesson. He is God-sent. So is his wife and the relief society president.


"I'm glad you could see past the human faults of the church members and know that the principles of the church are in place.

Being a victim of rape or any other advances against your will is NOT YOUR FAULT. (((HUGS)))"
posted at 11:45:28 on August 19, 2011 by confidence
Chiming in!    
"Like the bells in a cathedral! I find myself doing the same more often also. The lessons we have learned though painful make us who we are. Not what we are. We gain wisdom! If we allow our trials to build our character by using the tools of the gospel, then we can become instruments in the Lords hands. He will use us to bring truths to those who are in need. Because of my experiences I can have empathy for others in genuine ."
posted at 12:23:23 on August 19, 2011 by Hero
Good for you!    
"I'm glad that you said something. Something definitely needed to be said. NO ONE deserves to be raped. It is shocking to me to hear that said, especially from a woman. You're a strong person. All of us here are stronger than we think. It takes a strong person to fight addiction."
posted at 18:03:47 on August 19, 2011 by dstanley
One more thing    
"I hope I have the same courage if anything comes up when we get to that lesson. Heck, right now I just hope to have the courage to go to church that week."
posted at 18:05:54 on August 19, 2011 by dstanley
Thank You!    
"Growing up in an LDS community, I have heard the comment made about immodest girls as pornography many times. Thank you for your side of it! The tendency to blame the victim is everywhere, and you probably made a bigger difference than you think by shedding some reality and levelheadedness into the discussion. I personally will be correcting that nonsense next time i hear it. Fight the good fight, Sister!"
posted at 17:22:27 on August 21, 2011 by Braingeek
so sorry to hear this    
"TL, I am so sorry to hear that you had to listen to someone say things like that.
A very close friend of mine is a rape survivor and I know how unfeeling things like that can affect her.
My background in law enforcement (not exactly the most fun part of my career) has repeatedly confirmed that how a woman dresses is not the cause of being assaulted.
That said, the Church's standards on modesty are absolutely correct and we should all follow them. But no one deserves to be raped.
best wishes,
posted at 13:23:06 on September 6, 2011 by hk-47
You are right and they are right    
"You are right. It is not your fault that you were raped.

But, if you do dress immodestly you are making it harder for sons of God to remain pure in their thoughts. Now, I have seen tons of immodest women and I have never raped anyone. So saying that immodesty causes rape is pretty stupid, that's like saying playing Halo causes murders. People who are gonna murder are gonna murder, people who are gonna rape are gonna rape.

But people who are going to have problems with pornography and ruin their lives and relationships might not have had a relapse or gotten into the problem in the first place if it weren't for your immodest dressing (if you do dress immodestly I have no idea, maybe you don't) So in that sense the women in the Relief Society were right. Take that into account if you ever consider dressing immodestly again.

Now them saying that immodest women are raped as a consequence of that....well that is just stupid. thats like saying to your child, "you stole that kids lunch, so I'm going to kill you."

Despite that its very important that you never ever get offended.

To take offense is a sin, it is a form of judging. If you are angry with them for "judging" you then you need to take the mote out of your eye because you are doing the exact same thing to them.

Further, if they werent trying to offend you, then you shouldnt be offended. Elder Bednar once said, "He who takes offense where none intended is a fool."

Christ said "turn the other cheek""
posted at 00:50:35 on September 14, 2011 by Porojukaha
Hmmmmmm! Porojukaha    
"So if I choose to dress immodestly and you happen to see me and it arouses lust in your heart, and you choose not to look away, but choose to go and turn on your computer to find porn and masturbate then I have sinned? What if I just happened to be wearing a bathing suit and because I am very attractive physically you choose to lust, it is my fault.

Lust is the sin. I am not responsible for anyones behavior but my own. I have my agency, you have your agency."
posted at 09:45:26 on September 14, 2011 by Anonymous
hmmmm... Anonymous    
"Pride is the worst sin.
especially when you can't even see it about yourself."
posted at 12:32:17 on September 14, 2011 by Anonymous
"1st i wasnt offended. 2nd i hate to even expose my collar bone since i was a child. 3rd taking offense is not always a sin... it determines in whay way you are offended. And last Denying the spirit is the unforgivable sin.... therefore the worst. Theres a reason why im saying all this so bear with me.

Jesus entered a temple where goods were being marketed. He was offended by wha was being done there. But him being offended was righteous... why? There is such a thing as righteous anger. Do you think those who were marketing their goods were trying to offend him? I don't, but their ways/thought process needed to be adjusted. Now im not jesus but thinking of all the people I know who are not mormons, alot of things that we as mormons consider immodest, they wouldnt even think of...

Did you know that other cultures/ religions not only teach modesty, they teach on giving modesty.... ie. Lowering your gaze, not lingering your eye on the immodest dresser. We all have our agency. We all choose what we look at.

So let me amend my # 1 yes i was offend but it was for others sake and it wasnt out of pride but out of righteous anger because things need to change. We need to love one another without looking at what he/she is wearing. We need to teach others to not look down upon those who do not share the same value as us and stop the blame. We are all responsible for what we do. We make a choice. So instead of supporting the excuse that Sarah was raped for whaat she wore... we need to realize that Sarah isnt an object to be handled forcibly without the notion that she is a human being and has feelings and both our sons and daughters need to learn, understand, and respect that!!!!!!!!.
And its funny now that i think about it I was meant to hear that. I now feel that it was the spirit who guided me to say what i did because i wanted to say alot more but something held me back!
! While taking offense can be a sin, givig offense can be too even if its not intended. Because if you dont educate yourself on what you say then you can mislead/ misguide people and cause them to lose faith. Its in the scriptures.
Ultimately something needed to be said to adjust the misguidance of the person... and to help them grow too!

Im just saying"
posted at 03:43:09 on September 15, 2011 by taintedlove
Im getting angry...i notice that lately    
"some posts on her are getting me a little upset. in alot of ways. i think its good that people voice opinions, cause freakly, you aren't going to get people to say this stuff at church, and people can post anon comments...hiders....

i don't think women that walk around are 'walking pornography" i think that is a lame comment...i know several busniess women, that look great wearing business outfits, and nothing is reveling...but they are extremely beautiful and confident. So is a woman wearing a bikini porn on the beach, or a 1 pc swimsuit ok? is it porn if she wears that in her back yard minding her own business? (a simulair instance of david + bathsheba) is the sexual act...not just clothes or a prettier girl then ratings are for sex, not swimsuits and underwear...but if it turns you on....then you shouldn't look at it.

are we talking semantics here??? i dont know....but a kohls add or the jc penny catalog that features womens underwear is hardly porn. I personally know a women, that models for jockey underwear, does that make her a slut, cause she does that?

Is it walking porn if a young women is busty and she has a hard time covering her DD breasts....thats an awful thing to say about some of these young girls that try, but find it hard to have clothes that fit right....its not there fault for large breasts. Or, how FITTING or tight should pants be? right size, 2 sizes too small? 2 sizes too big? how baggy? Should young women of the church wear thongs? is that right? Should they wear fun pantys or grandma hanes her way? I ask these questions, as i now have a daughter, and i have to consider these things, when buying clothes for my daughter....if really are going to get hung up on underwear, then i don't know what to think. btw my x wife says if i buy my daughter thongs she will kill you know how she feels on the subject....

i do agree some woman, should be more modest.....and i agree with the thought, that wearing immodest clothes does allow men to objectify dance clubs...our culture is so sexual in nature, with music and movies, and clothes...its to promote the boobs and butts, thats for sure....

men are wired, to desire a women, men are wired to naturally look. Its my nature....however, we are to over come that.....whoso looketh upon a women to the commandment....not WHO NOTICES.....there are pretty girls everywhere, and i have finally gotten to the point, of noticing the beauty, and thanking god for beauty....this has worked for me....god divinely made women beautful, and that shouldnt be totally cause for avoiding vanity....
furthermore, if i was to say, be married again, and she, being my spouse, wanted to wear something sexy and fun....i don't have a problem with that. Neither does the church, keep the goverment and church out of the bedroom...its none of their damn business....and franky none of mine, what someone else does in theres either....

i think that the way we dress does say something, so i think that is something to consider, if it walks like a duck....a low cut dress, and a high cut mini skirit, yes says something.....i was a church once ( a mormon church) and yes a woman came to church wearing a leapord dress....i was like, is this a club??? it was quite hurmours, but she probably just hasn't learned yet, as she was a newer member.

now...i don't think that because a women dresses a certain way, that a MAN gets to do whatever he wants....thats wrong....totally...women arent a petting zoo.....women should be treated nice and with respect.

I have learned for my boundries in not be alone at my place late or a girls....i just end the night after the activity and go home.....i usually make it a joke, and say something like...."ok, this is the part where we kiss good night and you go to your house and i go to mine...alone....., and no one gets hurt" and i say it with a sarcastic make her laugh in which they normally have. so ya...thats something I am teaching my daughter, to just never be alone, or go off walking alone at night with them....then opens up the chance to get assualted.

im sorry that woman have this burden to must be a problem thru out the ages, as its harped on in the old testiment over and over again....and women wore things totally covering up then...and didn't shave their legs.....and they still had sexual problems then....ha...

my hope is to be a better man my own self. i don't think i will ever get married again, i have already messed things up enough for the 2 main girls in my life, my x and daughter i just try to deal with my own issues and fix myself and worry about what i think, say and do...doesn't always work out the way i wanted or planned, but i at least try.

we are human and we all make mistakes, we all sin.....adam and eve were kicked out for eating a fruit.....not sex, they didn't kill anyone, was a fruit, so we all fall short, we all are at risk until the end, as quoted by neal a maxwell, who is a greater man than i....we can all try just remember the greatest sinners in history, will need just as much mercy, even as i will...because i am no different."
posted at 08:46:56 on September 15, 2011 by skyteamst90
I think....    
"I think it all depends on your ultimate goal. If you are putting on a certain outfit in order to get guys to look longer than usual, you shouldn't wear that. I know, you all think that's dumb, but as members of the LDS church, we are separate from the world. There are things that we should and should not do. If there is any doubt, then read the Strength of Youth. If you are dressed modestly, and just happen to be very attractive and a man is staring you down, yes, that's his fault and his problem. But if you are wearing clothing that provoke that kind of thing from good men, then you are partly responsible."
posted at 15:47:59 on October 2, 2011 by SeminaryKid
......ummm yeah    
"My point wasnt for men or women who purposely dress to entice (God will take care of those, but your sins are your sins and their ains are their.) My point was for those who werent raised in the church or whose values are slightly different.....
However, even if a woman or man is butt naked in the street NO PERSON HAS THE RIGHT TO TAKE ADVANTAGE! NO MEANS NO!!!! Also if you look at a person and lust guess what? Its a sin! Its your sin!!!!! And their sin is theirs!"
posted at 19:54:46 on October 2, 2011 by taintedlove

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"I need not define your specific problem to help you overcome it. It doesn’t matter what it is. If it violates the commandments of the Lord, it comes from Satan, and the Lord can overcome all of Satan’s influence through your application of righteous principles. Please understand that the way back is not as hard as it seems to you now. Satan wants you to think that it is impossible. That is not true. The Savior gave His life so that you can completely overcome the challenges you face. "

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General Conference May 1990